Thread #870434

I am of ready when you close your next post

Rodger

Alright I'll count us down
>>870439
oh i didnt even realize it was at 7 lol
we can start at 7, it's just starting off with like a intro

are you good tilde
alright
3
2
1

just to make sure tho
We're starting at 0, or are we starting at 7 like your link?

Alright, I'm lined up for 7 now

Yup yup

here we go~

firefox is nice cause it's got the PIP now so I can have the video IN the thread
>>870444
yaya

The video itself isn't particularly important in itself, I suppose, since the point is the audio, but I find myself unable to actually keep paying attention if it's just audio
My brain just starts processing it as music, and then background noise, very quickly

I treat a lot of videos by NorthernLion that way, and I'm not the only one in his audience who does, I know that much
It's just comforting to have like, the sound of someone talking, in the background

pip? picture in picture?

sounds like a neat feature
i just have the tabs side by side

It's a very nice feature, though I don't get a lot of use from it since I have two monitors anyway

we are americans he says to an american, a canadian, and a norwegian

I'd bet there were even extranationals in the seminar he's doing in that room.

"sorry everyone only americans are allowed to come. i need to make a comment about liberty and only americans value that"

In fairness there aren't too many cultures that fetishize liberty like Americans do.
Closest might be France.

true haha

utah is all mormons

Geez I don't blame him for fumbling "Youth heroin use"

>>870452
Yeah.
Weirdly a lot of American fantasy authors come out of Utah and its Mormon community too.

i think once you see utah you can see why so many fantasy authors come out of it
we'll have to go camping out there someday like i did with jan

Meth, we're on it

So far I feel like he's just reiterating stuff like
We all sorta know
?

in a talk like this you always gotta go over the basics and slowly increase the complexity of what you're talking about
just to make sure everyone is following along and nobody is missing that essential basic info

I guess yeah
You gotta cover your bases when you talk about something like this I guess

this was one of the hardest things for me to accept about myself
the part about pleasure

but the same is true about ADHD in a slightly different way and he'll go into some of that

I mean, that's sorta why I think I'd probably prone to addiction
Cause I'm pretty aware something's not wired properly when it comes to pleasure or happiness or something up there
And a lotta drugs, well maybe just altering my mind to begin with, kinda... does it

Anything more potent than a paracetamol or ibuprofen, and I kinda like what it does, even if it's something that just makes me sick

i absolutely love drugs
just about anything other than pot or stims
just thinking about getting fucked up, even at 3 years 8 months of sobriety, makes me feel so excited

Like, I don't drink THAT heavily anymore
But I definitely drink a lot more often now that I live alone

Cause it's like
Not my normal

I don't like being drunk, not really, but I really don't like being sober, specifically

this is the important stuff he's talkin about now
how the brain is rewarding this and that
and how the brain is so fucking dumb

Iunno if pathology v diversity is a good way to look at it

translator note: TIA is transcient ischemic attack
also known as a mini stroke

A stroke is like, when for whatever reason your brain just doesn't get blood for a bit, right?

a stroke is when bloodflow is restricted to the entire brain or a part of the brain, in a way which damages the brain
a ministroke is the same but doesn't damage brain cells or cause any permanent damage to the brain

I've actually kinda discovered my smoking isn't much about the nicotine at all, and all alternative forms of nicotine delivery does for me is make me not want to smoke cause I know too much nicotine makes me fucking sick
I do like the nicotine too, but that's not why I smoke, really
I mean, I do smoke for the nicotine, but I don't specifically smoke for the nicotine

he's gonna talk about epigenetics too
which is really interesting

i am a low responder to alcohol
and pretty much all drugs

>>870469
sometimes it's just the ritual

It's a lot about the smoking itself, yeah
But I picked up snus a little bit recently, cause holy SHIT the delivery is so much more potent, I feel like I'm on some sorta low-grade ritalin again, but it's legal and socailly acceptable
Crushing up a ritalin capsule and putting it up my nose isn't something I can do at work, but I can put one of these packs under my lip and it's fine, and I feel so fucking awake and alert

epigenetics is fucking gay because it's like
oh your great great great grandparents went through a famine? lol have a fucking disorder

>>870472
Oh, this kinda stuff has kinda been shown in animal tests, hasn't it?

yeah and humans which he just discussed

well yeah, but with humans there's a lot of other factors

the reward stuff is the stuff that really fucks me up
this shit is at the core of all my problems

this is what i mean by the brain being so fucking stupid.
anything that is rewarded by dopamine is misinterpreted as important for survival

Reminds me a bit of when I returned from crying in bed after getting too researchy around ADHD and discovering my brain is just fundamentally broken
and you laughed at me hahah

your brain isn't fundamentally broken

I mean I still think it is, but I have a different view of it now than I did
At the time it was really traumatic

well i apologize for laughing at that time, that was really invalidating

Is fine
It's just a memory now

I probably came off as more crazy than I think I did anyway
But I was always very invested in my brain being a good one
Like, on an identity level

even after these years of sobriety, my brain is still telling me that if i just had some booze my problems would all be solved
telling me that every day
because all my brain wants is that dopamine and it knows that nothing is going to give me that dopamine like booze


but you can also extrapolate from this stuff, that if you aren't getting dopamine hits, the brain isn't finding things rewarding, then the brain will really panic and go for whatever it knows will give it dopamine because that means it's good for sobriety

Is nicotine actually dangerous, or is it the ways youj get it?

survival, not sobriety*

>>870484
it can be dangerous yeah not as much as some other substances but yeah

other things that can reduce D2 receptors is stress
when you have fewer D2 receptors, you experience more anhedonia, things are less rewarding and the frontal cortex doesn't work properly
i.e. depression can arise from stress

so it's something you gotta be aware of
you know, meaning stress can make you feel like nothing you do will be worth doing

Props to them for resisting the urge to make the green ones the category pot goes in

>>870487
And then since you're doing nothing the stressors only increase and hey, look where we are now.

>>870489
and then since your brain doesn't think anything is worth doing, it doesn't motivate you to do the things that will actually cause the D2 receptors to heal

so the brain is extremely stupid and super vulnerable to just completely fucking not working

>>870490
That sounds like depression alright
Nothing's worthwhile, especailly the things that'd make things feel more worthwhile

I actually am kinda interested in your addiction, in a sorta like, morbid curiosity way I guess
Like, I know you know what's actually happening in your head, but I kinda am interested in how that's experienced on a more base level

Cause it's not like your head's going "the dopamine, please"

i mean that's basically what my brain is doing
it just tells me it wants dopamine and my mind says "i really want a drink" or "a drink would solve this"

Yeah, but that's not what you experience directly, right?

like, I don't really get cravings on a conscious level, even for cigarettes, I just want them cause they make me feel good and that's about as far as it goes
Like, I know I am addicted, but I've never been like "I need a smoke. I need a cigarette", you know?

i mean that's why i want booze because i know it will make me feel good
and because i want to feel good especially when i'm not feeling good
so i just say "I'd really like a drink" or "I should go grab a bottle"

so it's kinda like, instead of your brain going "man I feel shitty", it's just directly pointing at the ""solution"" of alcohol?

here's that anhedonia stuff

>>870497
i mean sometimes i think about how i feel like shit before i think about the solution
i'm not in active addiction so my brain has to be sneaky
the brain's goal is to trick me into using by slowly convincing me to reduce certain obstacles to using until there's nothing there to protect me from a need to drink

the cravings that he's talking about now, i don't get so often
now that i've gotten so much sober time

but like when he said "i just want to feel that burn in my throat again" my whole body state changed because of how deeply i feel that intellectually and physically

see
you have such a similar concept of Brain to me, that's why it's hard to accept that's not a normal thing for people do have
It's separate from your identity, even though you know it's literally the machine behind it

most people are driving cars that work in the way their driver wants them to. they will never question the function of their car.

our cars are breaking down and constantly need to be monitored for signs of falling apart
we have to question the function every day

I guess it's kinda like you're not that aware you're driving a car until suddenly, the clutch doesn't work, so you can't shift gears, or the gas pedal goes all clunky

right. we're people who have to be aware because we need to turn the wheel a minute before we need to turn the car to make sure everything lines up.

normal people don't have to find methods of working within their brain's dysfunction
they will never question the difference between themselves and their brains at any more than an intellectual level

it's still very unreal to me though
it's so strange to me for people not to have this constant schism in their head, like not being aware of the other thing in there
having a Brain that likes them and cooperates is foreign to me

spirituality and meaning is the most important aspect of recovery from anything. trauma, addiction, anxiety, depression. anything
of course you need other stuff but without meaning none of it will last

people are finally starting to realize this and the literature is supporting it

Not having that meaning section filled feels to me like the shortest way to summarize my own depression, honestly

this is why i use logotherapy with clients so often
my goal is to spur them to discover meaning in their own lives
because without meaning there is nothing

and Man's Search for Meaning is probably one of the most important books there are, and i recommend it to most of my clients
i even have a copy that i lend to people all the time

I'm not even entirely sure my brainmachine can 'do' meaning
It's kinda been too long since I had anything lasting that resembled it, I've started to think it's just able to do that

everyone is capable of meaning, even people with extensive brain damage
but meaning is something that must be cultivated, there is an active effort to create meaning in the world or an active effort to find it
and once it's there it has to be fed

It is possible I'm looking for something else, something I've just mistaken for meaning, I guess

meaning is just about purpose

in therapy, it's more about a fulfilling purpose
that we need to find a meaning in what we're doing in order to enjoy it, it has to be meaningful to us
it becomes valuable to us

Isn't 'fulfilling purpose' kinda like
rectangular square?
>>870514
So it's like
Internal meaning, rather than external, I guess?

no. you can find meaning that isn't fulfilling
sisyphus is rolling the rock up the hill. he can choose to find that fulfilling through finding his own meaning in it, or he can find it to be a task with a purpose of him suffering

>>870513
all meaning is internal, but yeah

Like sure
But I mean, the purpose of him suffering isn't his internal purpose in it
That's extrapolating an outside meaning to the task

Also you can have purposeless fulfillment so by extension unfulfulling purpose should also exist.

>>870515
Not necessarily.
You can find internal meaning in that something is punishment and that you are to suffer.

During those years where I believed I had killed Saku, for example, I believed that I was miserable because I was being punished for what I had done.
That was a very internal meaning. I cultivated that meaning and I fed that meaning until it was big and strong. I found meaning in my suffering in that it was the consequence of my actions.

Yeah but like
You were 'being' punished
Right?

That sounds external to me
True or not, I mean sure the reasoning and belief is obviously internal, but the actual meaning of it sounds imposed from outside

You can be punished by yourself

>>870518
It's not imposed from the outside, I'm the one who is imposing it on myself.
The punishment is separate from the meaning of being punished.
Whether or not I'm actually being punished by God - the external part - is irrelevant to the meaning I find in my own suffering as being a punishment.

I guess
Maybe i'm just not wording myself properly

I guess what I mean is that it sounds like what you found meaning in was the idea that this was happening for a purpose that wasn't of your own creation, but from outside
Like how sisyphys pushes the rock, not because he chose to always push the rock, but because an external entity made it so he was to push the rock

He can find meaning in that, that it is purposeful, from someone else
And that's not very fulfilling
Or he can find meaning in it for his own sake, in a sort of "I kinda enjoy pushing this rock actually, it means something to me personally" way

You're conflating the imposed action (punishment) with the meaning Sisyphus derives from it.
The punishment can be external or internal or metaphysical in Kirara's case, but when meaning is derived from it, that meaning can only be internal.
Even if someone tells you the meaning of the action is punishment, if you internalize it, that will alter the meaning from what the someone told you and make it uniquely yours.

That's what I meant anyway
Not that it matters if what you attribute the purpose to is real or not, but that in your own conception the purpose is not actually originating from yourself, but from something external

I mean, all meaning is related to things outside of you. Nobody can find meaning only within themselves. Meaning, and spirituality, is 100% about your relationship to the external world and your place within it.

That's why I found "fulfilling purpose" confusing, anyway
I didn't really like, consider the purpose as being something other than 'for yourself' in that context

But I also do know that it's not that clear cut either, it's a muddled thing
It just seemed weird to me for someone to have an unfulfilling purpose if the purpose was like, something that mattered to them for their own sake

But again I might be operating with a different understanding of the terms

By that definition, work is an unfulfilling purpose for me.
It matters to me that I work, so I can sustain myself and not stagnate.
But I mean I just can't find it fulfilling or satisfying. So it's hard for me to actually do it.

Most people are living without meaning or with a meaning that doesn't fulfill them.
Yeah, >>870527

People are usually living for things that they don't want to live for. People are living to get by. They can find a purpose in the things they do, but it isn't fulfilling.

>>870527
I mean
Consider your audience, I guess

So a big part of living is, in my estimation, finding a fulfilling purpose.
Frankl, who developed all of this theory as he struggled to survive the concentration camps in Germany, believed people were motivated by Will to Meaning.

Personally, I believe in Will to Happiness but I think meaning is a big part of that.

I mean at least specifically with work, it gets real muddled, cause my job is one where I actually sorta enjoy a lot of it, in its own right, but I dislike it because it's my job
Just the fact I'm not doing this stuff, like helping people and whatever the fuck, by choice but by a large machine coercing me, makes me not enjoy being there to do it, despite kinda enjoying it

Enjoyment is only meaningful if you think it so though.
When I worked in a bookstore last year I certainly enjoyed it but I still couldn't really find it fulfilling though.
It's probably the closest I've been in employment to finding fulfillment though.

For me, my work is very fulfilling. Because it's in line with my values and because I'm able to find meaning in what I do with each client.

I rarely do anything I don't find meaningful because I find meaning in virtually everything I do.
Which is why it's hard for me to do things that feel meaningless to me, like getting my doctorate, since the doctorate itself is just a piece of paper that exists to gatekeep me and keep me from doing the things I'm already highly trained and experienced with.

For me it's really just a job at the end of the day
I'm not someone to any of the people I bant with while at work, neither my coworkers nor the regular customers
I'm just some guy (which is a different problem altogether) who works at the convenience store

It's just how I make ends meet, and every human being I see there forgets I exist when I get my car at the end of my shift
And I forget them
It's very empty, really

>>870534
Right. So there's purpose, but it's not fulfilling.
Cultivation of fulfilling meaning is often the difference between joy and numbness.

@jan

>>870536
Yeah, but I can't make it fulfilling
The things most resembling any sort of like, actual meaning in my life is talking like this on this fucking forum, or voicechatting with dutchfriend

>>870533
Conversely I'm generally pretty good at finding enjoyment in stuff I do but I'm just not hedonistic enough to settle for that being satisfaction.

>>870537
Might wanna drop it in the other thread this one's for a psych seminar we watched and I dunno if Jan will be combing this next time he's on.

>>870538
Not everything has to necessarily be meaningful or have a positive meaning.
But there are ways you can find fulfillment in your life despite your work not being fulfilling.
It's just a matter of discovering or creating the meaning in your life and cultivating it.
For example, being part of an organization and doing something that supports the movements you do. Many people find fulfillment through that, including me.
Meaning-making is about exploration, about playing with your own perspective, and about self-study.

but like
I cut myself off from here, mostly
And dutchfriend is drifting away from me interestwise, and I've long since drifted away from him valuewise, so there's not a lot left between us beyond this sorta bond of both being kinda genuinely fucked up human beings

>>870541
But I dunno how to create meaning for myself
There's like, nothing there, other than obviously my politics and that's a fucking waste of time at least where I am location-wise
There's no organization to join here, not in a real sense, best I could do is join a fucking political party and become some fucking stooge

I can't just create an organization either, I don't have a schedule that allows it

>>870540
my bad. i just opened the top thread

>>870543
You're more than your politics. But you don't know who you are yet, which makes finding meaning especially difficult.

I mean, I founded an entire DSA chapter and led it for almost two years while I was still in graduate school. After that, I tried to found two other organizations that didn't pan out. Right now, I'm a member of an organization with people online that produces protest resources.
And I'm working 40-50 hours a week.
Now, I'm not saying you need to do that kind of stuff or even that you should. It was just an example.
But finding and creating meaning is often something that takes considerable time and we have a duty to ourselves, in my view, to dedicate that time. We need to be kind to ourselves and do the things that will facilitate our happiness.

I'm not fully sure I actually am... more than my politics

You are more than your politics!
Whether you can see that or not right now, you are.

When it comes to stuff like this, I'm literally an expert.
The self is complex and amorphous. It needs to be developed. You have parts of your identity, but you're always questioning the parts you do have. Because you haven't been able to see real life manifestations of parts of yourself, you struggle to see them.

I've talked about this before on twitter and maybe you've seen those threads, but people latch onto labels that they use to sort of create a faux identity, which expands into a persona based on that label. You can see that clearly when you look at people whose entire life is Harry Potter or Star Wars or Lenin or Hitler. Or Democrat or Republican or Anarchist or whatever.
People take these ideas and conflate themselves with all of that, and prevent themselves from developing an identity that exists separately from that.

If you take away your politics, who are you? What are you?
Your politics are something you do, they aren't who you are.

I mean, even I've talked about that a little i think

But I just dunno if there is much more to me
A lot of it because I don't have a 'life' I guess

And a lot of that is a result of the depressions I guess
Which I find it hard to even refer to without joking like that

I just don't have any real interests, or a social circle, or anything I think of when I think of someone who like, is someone
It's like I'm not fully human in a lot of ways, there's stuff missing from my head, like having sn actual interest in developing social relationships, or the ability to maintain a hobby
None of it like, happens, for me

And I've always been like that

You don't necessarily need those things to have a fully developed identity.
There is a "you" that exists beyond your politics, beyond even words and phrases.
But you have to discover that and become it.

But the me I'm left with when I strip away the politics is just an empty, angry creature who wants to love
It's not like I'm disinterested in particular stuff, I mean I am but more importantly, everything that even touches on being an interest fades away quickly

I don't think there's that much like, more there can be to me as an individual than like, my views and opinions, and my interests
I dunno what more there is

The only thing that seems to stick around id my gender being a catastrophe, and Sven that I dread going away, and I have episodes centered around that fear
But that's slso the only thing that's neither interest or opinion
As ND i dont even fully know what it is

And
Not as ND

That's why I say you don't know who you are yet.
Even with your gender, you haven't accepted that stuff. You haven't integrated it into yourself. You have vague ideas and you attach to the terror of potentially losing it, even though you don't even have it yet.

I mean the terror is realizing it was fake, more than anything else

That's what I mean by you haven't accepted that stuff yet.
You are actually working against developing a holistic sense of self. You can't accept these things. How are you going to figure out who you are if every time a piece of the puzzle is there, you just question whether it's a piece to the proper puzzle instead of just plugging it into the space it goes into?
You can't finish a puzzle if you question every piece to the point that you never put it in with the other ones.
You end up just indecisively staring at all these scattered pieces, unable to see what the picture is supposed to be.

If you believe something is part of your identity, and then later there comes a time where it isn't, that doesn't mean it was fake. It means your identity developed further. People grow and lose and gain parts of their identity every day, even in every moment. People are constantly changing, just like everything else. What's the point in questioning pieces so much? If you plug it in and it fits, accept that, and if later you find that it no longer fits, you accept that, too, and adjust things accordingly.
Sometimes I feel masculine, sometimes I feel feminine, sometimes I feel neither, sometimes I feel both. My gender identity is different every day and is expressed differently every day. All of those expressions are part of me and none of them are fake. I am like a cloud, just taking whatever shape I take when I take it as I float along in the wind.

I guess yeah
Sorry, I dozed off mid conversation again.

what's ND?

A typo
Or neurodivergent, but in my use here it was a typo